Save Wales From Welsh?
In school, we have recently been given an article from The Daily Mail titled Save Wales From the Welsh: Children told they can't go to the loo if they ask in English. Architects shunned if their plans aren't in Welsh. ROGER LEWIS on the nutty Welsh Language Society. We have been asked to react and to express our opinions.
You can see the article here, although I think the online version has been changed since we read it in school. A few words that compared the Welsh Language Society with the Taliban have been removed.
The article says that a child in Ceredigion wasn’t able to go to the toilet because they didn’t ask to do so in Welsh. This is utter nonsense! The child wouldn’t be requested to ask in Welsh unless they went to a Welsh medium school, and “Ga i fynd i’r t? bach?” is a more than simple task to anyone who has been learning Welsh from a young age.
On the other hand, the article also states that children are being shunned for speaking English. This is partly true: in Welsh medium schools children are encouraged to speak Welsh in their leisure time and are punished for speaking English. This rule is hardly enforced and the punishment is nothing major, but I do agree, there shouldn’t be a punishment at all. Then again, how else are schools going to encourage children to speak Welsh? More and more people want to go to Welsh medium schools, but the number of people speaking the language regularly remains the same.
Roger Lewis explains that he is a Welshman and is proud of it. I highly doubt that he is proud of his roots, since he goes on to criticise the Welsh signs on the things in Wales. He says that there is no reason to put ‘tacsi’ and ‘ambiwlans’ on our public transport. I disagree – although the spellings and pronunciations of these words are strikingly similar to English, I feel proud whenever I see them. I like going to England and seeing the lack of Welsh signs because it adds a difference between the countries. What’s the point of living in Wales if you aren’t surrounded by Welsh?
He describes Welsh as a language of ‘regional backwardness’ and English as the language of ‘social and economic advancement’. Welsh is gone, it’s in the past, English is in the future, it is what we must focus on. That’s the message The Daily Mail writer is showing us. He claims he wants to learn Welsh since he has a fascination with ‘lost things’. Welsh is lost in Lewis’ view. I have never heard an enthusiastic insult before, so kudos for that, Mr Lewis.
The author of the article fails to grasp the concept of being bilingual: “One architect told me that he can't get his plans through unless he submits them in Welsh. Yet those youngsters being educated exclusively in Welsh are also going to be a bit stuck. Where else can they go but Wales? Patagonia? They are ill-equipped for anywhere else the other side of the Severn Bridge”. He then misunderstands how a person can learn a third language: “How can you teach French in Welsh to children who think in English? It creates a maze of confusion”.
I am bilingual and proud of it. If I applied for a job in England (and assuming moving wouldn’t be a problem), I’d have just as good a chance as an English person with the same qualifications. I just happen to be able to speak the language of my country. That’s got to count for something, right? I also want to point out that I am learning German as a second language (since Welsh and English to me are pretty equal and I learned them both at the same time) and I am passing through the work with flying colours. The teachers keep giving us hints on how to remember things, and being bilingual helps a lot. ‘Pont’ means ‘bridge’ in both Welsh and French and translating verbal Welsh (which is a lot more relaxed than written Welsh) in your head is as easy as pie to a fluently bilingual person. It wouldn’t matter in which language they taught the second language.
Lewis criticizes schools for encouraging mothers to read Welsh books to their children rather than English ones. If you’re learning a language, you should read it. Everyone knows that. Welsh is harder for people to learn generally, even from a young age, which is why we should encourage learning more than ever. We still have to recover from the Welsh Not! Lewis says that children are scared to speak English at home, and therefore the Welsh Language Society is like the Warsaw Pact. A lot of parents can’t speak Welsh and if they can, then they can speak whatever. People aren’t pressured at home. Even during the times of the Welsh Not, children were free to speak whatever they liked in the comfort of their own homes, and the same is true now.
What do you think? Is there too much Welsh in Wales, or do you think that removing the Welsh would remove the feeling of that Welsh place? I certainly agree with the second one.
Info � Law & Rights � Discrimination
Organisations � Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg - Welsh Language Board
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IMAGE: Leo Reynolds
11 Comments – Post a comment
Tom_Bevan
Commented 41 months ago - 5th December 2012 - 16:31pm
Very good article, well argued and discussed. Personally, I think that the Welsh language is a part of our culture which should be kept alive and should be in the public eye- and certainly, if you are bilingual, other languages tend to come easier which is good in a ever globalised job market and just for your hols. The Daily Mail as usual are well out of order. I do think that there needs to be a limit on how much we translate for the sake of saving paper/ resources/ translation costs but where you draw the line is near impossible to say.
End0fDarkness
Commented 41 months ago - 5th December 2012 - 17:37pm
Personally, I believe that all languages are a part of history of a country and some people like to learn that language as to feel more in touch with their ancestry and roots, which I have no problem with.
However, apart from a hobby or just something that someone does in their own time, I can't see any other practical use for another language, especially one which (to be painfully honest) isn't wide used, such as Welsh. Like I said, learning another language is great, I've heard of studies which have shown that bi lingual children have better cognitive skills on average than those who know only one language (after a certain age, before the age, children often become confused, having to switch between languages). So the side benefits I can see having a point. But, I believe that these added benefits could be gained in other ways that maybe more practical.
The time and resources spent in teaching welsh in schools could be used in other ways, such as learning life skills, like money management or memory or studying techniques, which I believe would be more beneficial to a child. As I said, I see learning a language as a hobby, so if all that time and resources are spent on a hobby, why not sewing instead, or chess or learning an instrument?
I still maintain that it would be more practical if the world all spoke one langage, just like how Latin used to be used. The way its going, its appearing that English just happens to be that language. Luckily for me, English is my first language, but in the global scheme of things, it wouldn't matter if that language was German, Welsh, French or Spanish. All being under the same language means that we could novels written by anyone, anywhere in the world without a translation, we could attend any event anywhere, read research by papers by anyone and go anywhere we wanted without feeling more so like an 'outsider'.
Your article was very good, well put together. There are a few things I'd like to bring up though.
First, I agree, I don't think that the Daily Mail should have slandered the Welsh Language as much as it did. I personally believe that the media should be as objective as people and let people make up their own minds.
'in Welsh medium schools children are encouraged to speak Welsh in their leisure time and are punished for speaking English. This rule is hardly enforced and the punishment is nothing major, but I do agree, there shouldn’t be a punishment at all.' Completely agree to this too. A person's leisure time is up to them how they spend it...as long as it doesn't cause harm.
'The child wouldn’t be requested to ask in Welsh unless they went to a Welsh medium school,' Unfortunately this isn't true. I went to an English speaking school and was also made to ask to go to the toilet in Welsh as well. I think recently, this is part of the nationwide 'Foundation Phase' which is the new curriculum for infant age children, which makes it mandatory to teach children Welsh.
'I just happen to be able to speak the language of my country. That’s got to count for something, right?'. Unfortunately no. If a skill isn't directly used in the job (like speaking to people in Welsh) then all that's added in your favour is the added side benefits. But, these added side benefits would be worth the same as people who did other cognitive developing hobbies, such as computer programming or painting or playing an instrument,
'Welsh is harder for people to learn generally, even from a young age, which is why we should encourage learning more than ever' Why? I can understand that those who want to speak Welsh want others who they can speak it with, and those who have learnt it because they are proud to be Welsh see it as being important and want it to carry on. However, why should we force our children to learn something that other people feel passionate about? I see it as the same as being forced to learn basket weaving from the ages of 3 to 16 because some other people enjoy it. I believe that the opinions and passions of others should not determine how others live their lives, I believe its up to each individual person, as long as they pay for the services that are provided for them and don't cause deliberate and lasting harm to others.
End0fDarkness
Commented 41 months ago - 5th December 2012 - 17:50pm
My other comment was mainly about this CLIC article...but...WOW, I can not believe what this John Lewis actually said.
'Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of yet there isn't a Welsh Shakespeare.'
Blatant racism. Traslated, that just breaks down to 'We had one noticeably good writer who just happened to be born in this part of the country, you didn't so you are terrible'
It's this guy's right to be uneducated...but to give this guys article space on a website? I kinda look down on the Daily Mail.
'But what can be done about a place that now states, on job applications, 'Welsh speaker preferred'? Unless you are willing to go to classes and learn Welsh, what such xenophobia means in practice is that third-rate local people get the posts - as doctors, teachers, psychologists, architects, and so forth. The Welsh language becomes a trade union ticket for employment.'
'The third rate local people'? As I said earlier, I don't believe that jobs should be given to people on the basis that they know another language, unless that language is to be specifically used in that job. But how are they 'third rate' people. The only difference between a non Welsh speaking architect and a Welsh speaking architect is that one speaks Welsh and the other doesn't.
I could go on, but I'd be here for hours. And it looks like this Roger Lewis is already getting owned in the comments section.
CrazyDistortion
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 09:50am
@EndOfDarkness Would that be the same with other lesser used languages? Like Native American and Celtic languages?
Because to them, their languages are not hobbies, it's their way of life. And for many people in Wales, Welsh is too. Yes, specially the North and maybe some Southern counties are Welsh based, but it's not a hobby for them, it's a way of life.
For me, I want the Welsh language to live. But I think that a lot of people are going the wrong way in doing it. Like when I was in school, one that was prided on being one of the first Welsh secondary schools in the country, the teachers would give those who speak English a row. That was normal. It was also normal that the pupils would just rebel against the teachers, and just just carried on to speak English.
I only had this thought when I was in my last years in school. Now, I'm struggling to use the language. Luckily I know some people who I speak Welsh to, and I try my best to do things in Welsh (like setting my operating system, Facebook and software in the Welsh language, even tried to help translate Twitter once, but I failed...) but it's not enough.
It's the same these days. People are split into two camps: either the ones who want to keep the Welsh language at all costs and have Yma O Hyd on an endless loop, or those who just want to sacrifice the language to make other aspects of government to live.
Why can't there be a middle ground? It seems that I'm the only one who wants the Welsh language to grow, but not by force (if that makes sense).
There also seems to be some sort of hierarchy in Wales, where those who can speak Welsh look down to those who don't. Which, in turn, will make those who can't speak the lingo less likely to learn it. Which just makes the entire cycle worse, which will just divide people even more. Which is horrible, kind of like the amount of times I wrote "which" in this paragraph.
So, in the long run, the attitude of both sides completely stink, and I count myself in this. I know I can come over as someone as one of those "You're in Wales, speak Welsh" people, but I'm not. If you do, great, and if you don't, fair enough.
Sorry if this reads like I'm just attacking you, EoD. I'm just talking about everyone in Wales. :]
CeefaxOfLife
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 10:58am
I don't agree that "removing the Welsh would remove the feeling of that Welsh place?" I grew up in Grangetown and I never heard a word of Welsh of growing up, instead it was common to hear Arabic, Urdu and Punjabi. We used to get the Bristol signal so received Channel 4 instead of S4C and BBC West rather than Wales. I went to a school that tought French instead of Welsh.
What's my nationality? I'm Welsh.
There is no singular Welsh culture, you don't have to speak Welsh to be Welsh, you don't have to like rugby to be Welsh and you don't have to like Dylan Thomas, male voice choirs, The Stereophonics or Derek Brockway to be Welsh (love you Derek).
Regarding signs, I believe that they're there to be useful, hence why they're in many different languages in airports. If you're going to put Welsh on road signs in the south of Cardiff, why not also put them in languages that are used in these commmunities?
Finally; let people pee when they want (within reason) and ignore everything in The Daily Mail.
End0fDarkness
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 12:39pm
@CrazyDistortion Not at all =]. It's nice to be challenged on what I think and to have a different perspective, I think it helps us to grow =]. I apologise if anything I say comes over as attacking as well, that's not my intention.
'@EndOfDarkness Would that be the same with other lesser used languages? Like Native American and Celtic languages?
Because to them, their languages are not hobbies, it's their way of life. And for many people in Wales, Welsh is too. Yes, specially the North and maybe some Southern counties are Welsh based, but it's not a hobby for them, it's a way of life.'
I agree, if it's a person's first and only language, then learning that language is a way of life and they need to learn it out of necessity.
I have nothing against the Welsh langauge, there's history there which people enjoy and feel a sense of belonging. However, unfortunately for the Welsh language, is not as widely used an English. More services would be available to someone who spoke English, more information would be available and more specialists. However, if most poele in a town can speak English but insist on 'clinging' to a language and heavily encourging those in it to speak Welsh when practically, it doesn't give them as much options as speaking English. I find that as being stubborn and forcing others to think what is important, rather than allowing them to do so themselves.
To me, that school you mentioned would be an example of that.
'There also seems to be some sort of hierarchy in Wales, where those who can speak Welsh look down to those who don't. Which, in turn, will make those who can't speak the lingo less likely to learn it. Which just makes the entire cycle worse, which will just divide people even more. Which is horrible'. Which I totally agree with.
Since you asked a question to me, I was wondering if I could ask you one back.
You said that you want the Welsh language to live, but not by force. If the Welsh language is naturally dying out, because the benefits of speaking English are outweighing it. Apart from the pull of 'discovering your roots' which not everyone is into. Is there any other way in which we could keep the Welsh language alive, if not by force?
Pasternak
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 14:44pm
I went to an English-speaking primary school, but in Year 5 they introduced the "no peeing unless you've asked in Welsh" rule.
“Ga i fynd i’r t? bach, os gwelwch yn dda?" is permanently glued into my memory as a result. In fact, it's pretty much the only Welsh phrase I can recite off by heart.
CrazyDistortion
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 16:12pm
@EndOfDarkness From what I remember, the Welsh language is growing within people. Yes, I know it's only at about 30% of the population, and there are more Irish speaking people than there are people who live in Wales (which is a sad statement).
People think it's a dying language just because they only see fossils of it on sign posts or horribly read out on train stations (I mean, I was waiting for a train and the announcer said "Carefully" instead of "Caerphilly", it's not even a difficult Welsh word to pronounce).
When I wrote "by force", I meant in the case that people just thrust it down people's throats in the hope it creates a fire inside them to speak Welsh. Does that make sense? Probably not.
There really needs to be a change of attitude towards everyone regarding this too. I'm a Welsh speaker, but on countless times I've felt like I'm being looked down because I feel I'm being looked down for my abilities of the language. This kind of stems from studying my entire primary and secondary education in Welsh and being judged on how I use it. Which would deter people from using and learning the language.
We need to prove (and find ways) that using Welsh in Wales is beneficial. I know that all I'm doing is asking questions and not providing answers, and I apologise for that, as I'm a mere 20-something finding his feet on this planet. Maybe this is something the joyous youth of Wales can discuss and find equilibrium on this topic? :].
Hope Love Live
Commented 41 months ago - 6th December 2012 - 16:41pm
@Pasternak My sister went to an English-speaking primary (She moved from my primary because of bullying) and they tried to introduce that rule but the parents went nuts because if kids couldn't say it (and these were infants now and we were a school who had special needs classes) they weren't allowed to go, causing little accidents.
Personally, I think the Welsh language should live on but the fact that some schools are trying to force it onto you is unfair. There are some kids going to Welsh school with English-Speaking parents so they weren't brought up with "Bore da, bach, amser ar gyfer yr ysgol!" or "Ydych chi wedi glanhau eich ystafell eto, cariad?" so it's going to be hard for them to pick up.
Also, English-speaking schools (or at least some) are trying to get pupils to speak more Welsh and are making people do things such as write the date in Welsh. My sister's school do this and the fact that 80% of the classes don't put help on the board like days of the week or months is completely unfair- especially when some pupils have recently moved from England.
Great article, MashMallo! Really interesting and sprigs so many opinions! Da iawn, bach!
CarrotVakarian
Commented 41 months ago - 10th December 2012 - 20:00pm
I love this article and I agree with everything you say in principle, but in practicality the teaching of Welsh is difficult to get right.
If you make welsh compulsory, it becomes despised and abused by a lot of people. At school it is the one subject that is most hated, since pupils forced to learn it see it as pointless and a waste of time for either studying for other subjects or their social lives. Hope Love Live also makes an excellent point about the forcing of Welsh onto people from non-welsh backgrounds.
Most people taught Welsh compulsorily resent it and cannot speak or understand much more than "Es i i siopa gyda fy frindiau. Roedd yn dda iawn. Cefais i lawer o hwyl" anyway.
However if welsh wasn't taught at all the use of the language would stagnate; it would become a language only used by the elite welsh-roots who only ever speak it at home or if they need to gossip without being overheard by "English" people.
I think the problem is that unless you come from a Welsh-speaking household, most people simply cannot see the point pf Welsh at all. It is written on all signposts in wales (and often wrongly because the people in charge of making the signs do not understand a word of welsh beyond "rydw i'n hoffi coffi") when barely anyone is in need of Welsh signposting since "English does us just fine, thank you very much".
There is also the reversal of a historic thing: the Welsh Not. Whereas in Victorian times young children were punished for refusing to convert to speaking English, nowadays we are punished for refusing to accept and speak Welsh as part of our 'national heritage'.
Speaking as someone who is fluent in Welsh but from an English-speaking household, I know that I may have an odd mix of opinions.
CrazyDistortion
Commented 41 months ago - 17th December 2012 - 15:50pm
@CarrotVakarian "If you make welsh compulsory, it becomes despised and abused by a lot of people. At school it is the one subject that is most hated, since pupils forced to learn it see it as pointless and a waste of time for either studying for other subjects or their social lives. "
I would disagree with this.
My experience may be different than yours, but with me, everything was done in Welsh. Maths, Chemistry, Welsh, French, RE, IT, everything bar English was done in Welsh.
The only thing people in my school felt when studying using Welsh was not that they despised the language, just the way it was forced on us. I don't mean that in each person in my class would cry into a cup of tea, repeatedly yelping "why doth mother imprison me in a chamber to drown in my mother tongue?" or anything like that. They just hated the manner that it was almost as if you were not a good person if you spoke English in a Welsh school.
One perfect example is the heats for the last school Eisteddfod. I was getting ready to perform in a band, and I said something similar to "gallet ti plygio'r mewn i'r ail siannel yr Marshall?" My music tech teacher then turned around basically saying that if I say one more word of English, we were not allowed to compete.
He assumed that because I spoke one word in English, I was not speaking Welsh. Which is insanity, because you can't not say some English words in Welsh, same goes as French words in English (example - entrepreneur).
I can't say the same for those who went to an English school and was made compulsory to learn Welsh. But what I can imagine is that if you were made to learn Welsh and French in the same manner, it would make sense to dislike Welsh.
I've said this a million times (obv not on here), but there really needs to be a revolution of how the Welsh language is taught and used. I try my hardest to use the lingo as much as I can, but often I fail to use it because I feel inadequate when using the language. If I need to talk in Welsh, I feel as if my mouth is filled with impurity, as if every word I speak is inaudible to whoever I'm speaking Welsh to.
I don't know, those are my ill-conceived musings on the Welsh language and I. That is all for now. :].